A few days ago I shared a transcript I recently found from the first half of a cassette tape recording that William Salyers and I made one evening in 1997 while consuming a bottle of Macallan scotch, each. As promised, I share the second half of the full transcript at the end of this post.
We are clearly getting drunker on side two. Alas, this does not increase the insightfulness of our comments. Just the opposite, I’m afraid. I sure don’t like myself very much as the discussion wears on. It feels to me, thirteen years later, like I am trying to badger Bill into believing he will be a better artist once he admits he’s an artist and opens himself up to-- what?—the “wider universe”; the “heroism of art”, or whatever woo-woo crap 30-year old-Paul was spouting. At one point, I literally say to him: “I think you need to start reading folktales.” Can you even get more excruciatingly Left-Coast Joseph Campbellish condescending than that?
In the intervening time since I gave him this advice Bill Salyers has gone on to world premiere the title role in Louis Slotin Sonata in Los Angeles and then off-Broadway, winning himself several awards and enormous critical acclaim for his efforts. He also world-premiered my play An American Book Of The Dead – The Game Show, directed the world premiere of The Good Ship Manhattan, world premiered The Sequence playing future Nobel Laureate, Francis Collins, and these are just the examples from my scripts. The quality of his work as an actor in an even broader panoply of plays —classic, modern or brand new (mine and others) — is legend. And I think it is safe to say that Bill never really changed his point of view from the one he espouses in these recordings. In other words, for all my high holy exhortation to become a better artist by first admitting he is one, Bill remained a great artist, and became an even greater one, simply by being Bill. Lesson learned: not all heroes and artists want to be heroes and artists— some don’t even believe in such things— and yet, somehow, art and heroism still happen.
So, with that, here’s some highlights, then the whole thing at the end if you’re interested:
Blowing smoke up Salyers’ shorts while simultaneously patronizing him
PAUL: I consider you to be as great an artist as I’ve ever met. I consider you... to...I consider that I need to learn things about my craft that you’ve already learned about yours. I’ve also-- yeah! And I’m starting to, because you’ve worked at your craft. You’ve been pragmatic hands-on with your craft in a lot of different ways that I’m just starting to: I’m starting to write for television, you know. I’m starting to... write for hire.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: You know?
BILL: Right.
PAUL: Which you’ve been doing for a while. In fact, in some ways, you... that’s what you do is act for hire.... Except on projects like TUESDAY where you chose to do it because of-- of whatever feelings you have for the work. Um... but I-- but I think the one thing that I’ve always kind of instinctively known, whether it was because of my religions upbringing, or because of my attraction to art.
BILL: Mm-hm
PAUL: Because my attraction to art was one of a knight in shining armor. And we can talk about that too. Uh...I have revised my vision-- but not completely on that. Um... I do think that artists are true heroes.
BILL: Hmm? (Maybe this is sort of a verbal shrug?)
PAUL: True heroes. That true artists are those people who um.... and I include that person who can make the exquisite phad tai, or... or the exquisite scotch, or, or can uh... well, we can talk about that maybe later, but-- I feel like one of the things that-- that you refuse to admit is that that which you do is beyond your control--
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: To a certain extent. And you’re uncomfortable with that.
Devolving into faux-Jesse Jacksonism
PAUL: For many people-- for the born-again Christians of the world-- I would nothing but heartily convince them that there is nothing outside themselves.
(Bill laughs.)
PAUL: That that world which they have created is their own fucking fucked-up... vision of the world.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: And that that which they hate is themselves. And that which they love is a... sweetened aspect of themselves and that they have not left themselves.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: You... you I would encourage you to see the other aspect of the universe, and that is that you are constantly connected in a thousand million different ways to that which you feel unconnected to. And that that the-- that the satellite-- you’re either a satellite revolving around the sun or you are the revolution. You know?
BILL: Mmm.
PAUL: You know?
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: And uh... not to sound like Jesse Jackson. Although that would be-- Fuck, man. I should write for Jesse Jackson ‘cuz that’s great!
(Bill laughs.)
PAUL: That’s better than anything Jesse’s said in a long mother-fucking time.
(Bill laughs.)
PAUL: You’re either that which revolves around the sun, or (Jesse Voice) you are the revolution!
BILL: You’re right. That does sound like Jesse.
PAUL: Umm. Except it doesn’t rhyme. But it’s-- it’s a little too sublime for Jesse. We’ll have to find some other demagogue for it. But-- although I love-- my heart goes out to Jesse. I can’t hate, Jesse. He’s fab-- Did you hear his speech the last convention? It rocked.
Mullin lays an Irish curse on Salyers
PAUL: There’s-- There’s this great Zen koan that I love. Says-- the young monk comes to the master, and says, you know, “I’m meditating but I’m too cold.” And the Zen master says, “Well, you know when cold go to that place where you are so cold that it kills you and when you are hot go to that place where you are so hot that it kills you.” And I lay this Irish curse on you: “Live in that universe where there is no art. Be that universe where there is no art.”
BILL: Well, I think I’ve tried to. I mean, I--
PAUL: No, I mean it.
(Paul laughs.)
PAUL: NO, I MEAN IT!
(Paul laughs hysterically.)
BILL (drunken voice mockery of Paul): You don’t understand!
On whether an actor should ever argue a director down
BILL: This stuff about-- this stuff about uh-- nobody stops to think about the fact that there was a director involved in that show. It wasn’t just about what Steven wrote. It wasn’t just about what I did, you know? What I-- when I’m-- when I’m rending my hair, my fake hair, at an incredible point and I go, “RENFIELD!” That’s not necessarily my choice.
PAUL: Right.
BILL: That’s me doing what I was told the best way I could. And I’m--
PAUL: Right.
BILL: And I’m presented with the challenge of trying to find truth in that. Now a lot of actors would have argued Eddie down.... That’s not my job. It’s not my-- it’s not my job to uh-- promote myself--
PAUL: Is there ever a time when it’s right to argue a director down?
BILL: Yeah, when you’re the other director.
(Paul begins to groan very lowly. )
BILL: If you’re an actor your job is to do what you’re told as best as you possibly can.
PAUL: Wow! Okay! We come to the truth of it.
BILL: I’ve-- I’ve long said that. If you want to direct a play go fucking direct a play.
PAUL: Well, wait a second. Wa-wa-wa-waaaiiit a second
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: Because I think it’s not as facile as that.
BILL: I think it should be. I think if you’re a craftsman it is.
PAUL: Ah well.
BILL: --And that’s why I’m not an artist.
PAUL: Hmmm.
BILL: I-- I don’t have any patience for that crap. I mean, it’s another-- it’s another-- it’s another way that the film world has invaded what we do.
PAUL (overlapping): Well, here we go. Well, here we go is what I’m saying is like, yes, as the novice, rookie, bullshit actor who’s got a little taste of Stanislavsky, a bad taste via Mr. Uh-- Strasberg.
BILL: Strasberg, yeah.
PAUL: Uh.... That’s the last thing they need to be doing is telling the director what their choices are. But let me tell you something about Mr. (slurry) Mr. Eddie Levi Lee, is that you know more about theatre in your fucking, you know, nose--
BILL: Then I, then I--
PAUL: Hair clippings than Eddie Levi Lee knows.
BILL: Okay, then if I-- if I believe that going into it, I’m a hypocrite when I sign the contract. And I’m not a hypocrite... so I sign the contract.
PAUL: I-- augh!
On whether an actor should ever refuse a line change from a director
PAUL: Billy, you’re saying-- you’re saying to me that in no circumstances would it be right for you as one of the best actors that I know uh... to-- to call bullshit on a director. That
BILL: I’m saying it’s not my job.
PAUL (overlapping): That fucking frightens me. No, it is your fucking job!
BILL: No, it’s not.
PAUL: Yes, it is your fucking jo--
BILL: I don’t agree with you.
PAUL (overlapping): I went to-- John Sylvain came to me and said-- I had a line that said, “I threw that pass--” now obviously this is an actor/playwright, a whole ‘nother issue.
BILL: I know the line you’re talking about, too.
PAUL: Yeah, said, “That fucking nigger dropped it.”
BILL (simultaneously): “That fucking nigger dropped it.”
PAUL: And Johnny said, “You need to cut that.” And I said, “You need to go fuck yourself, because one, it’s the night before opening, and two, it’s the fucking script, and THREE, it’s the way we rehearsed it.
BILL: Well, let me-- let me tell you something. I’m not saying-- don’t misunderstand me. In that same situation I would have asked John to keep the line. I wouldn’t have told John to go fuck himself, because John’s the director.
PAUL: No! No! No!. But see that’s where I digress with you, because John’s fucking with my shit there and he has no business doing it.
BILL: Brother, it’s not--
PAUL: And he deserves--
BILL: It isn’t your shit!
PAUL: Yes!
BILL: It’s our shit.
To follow is the full transcript of the second side of the cassette.
We talk about this woman who plays deceptively simple Mozart compositions.
BILL: So she nails it.
PAUL Alright, so were back. . . .Nails it, nails it, well we were just talking about Mozart and how this woman plays Mozart and Bill had said, “She nails it.” As if to say, as if to say, “There’s a way to nail it. There’s a way to make it RIGHT! As if there is correct and incorrect.”
Bill is giggling in the background.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: There is?
BILL: You bet.
PAUL: All right. Well, I agree, but I’ll tell you why I think. . . well, let me get back-- I don’t want to get off the subject. We were talking about you wanting to be anywhere but that stage. And Joseph Campbell-- not to be too fruity-- but Joseph Campbell talks about-- I mean, you-- you are the quintessential archetypal hero going through the quintessential archetypal journey.
BILL: But I, but I-- but see, that’s where we differ. I deny the necessity of that. I do not ask--
PAUL: All-- and all archetypal heroes do.
Paul laughs delightedly at this.
BILL: The whole point is that I am-- I’m an icon; I’m not the program. The point is not for me to go up there and literally become what you’ve written.
PAUL: Why not?
BILL: Because-- I-- there’s, there’s no-- the Method, as such, essentially fails because that’s what it preaches. It tells you to become. And ... I don’t think becoming is sufficient. I think you have to comment to some degree. Or, or you-- you--
PAUL: I don’t think you comment.
BILL: You lose your perspective.
PAUL: I don’t think you comment as an actor. I think--
BILL: By nature of your choices you comment.
PAUL: Well, no you guide. You-- as an actor there is 99% of you that is completely the role, and then there is that-- that golden one percent of you that is simply monitoring, almost in a hypnotic state.
BILL: Right, right.
PAUL: For instance, and I’ll give you an example of hypnosis. I was just listening to a FRESH AIR and they were interviewing this hypnotist. And she said, “Well is there anyway to tell if someone’s faking hypnosis?” And he said, “Yes.” He said, “One way to tell if someone’s faking hypnosis is if they’re in a trance and you say-- and there’s a chair in front of them, and if you say, ‘walk forward’, a person who is faking hypnosis will walk forward and bump into this chair. The purpose-- the person who is not faking hypnosis will walk forward and step around the chair.” And I believe that that state is as close to the ideal state of an actor as possible. And that is, the ideal has that one last vestige of another realm of consciousness--
BILL: Unh-hunh.
PAUL: In which they make decisions.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: But they’re not even necessarily aware that those decisions are being made.
BILL: Yeah, I’d agree with that.
PAUL: But that gets off the point. That’s the ideal actor and that-- and no one is the ideal. That-- the-- one of the things that differentiates acting from other art forms-- and it’s one of the um... there... well, it differentiates performance art forms from so-called non-performance art forms, is that you’re doing it... in... the moment. So that you have no... revision capability.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: Um, and that’s what makes it so exciting.
BILL: Everything is--
PAUL: And that’s what makes it in some ways-- there should be a whole nother word for... for performance oriented art.
BILL: Well, I would agree to the degree that even many people who pay great homage and, and, and uh who spend a lot of time investing in the word “art” don’t necessarily think of acting as an art.... You know what I mean?
PAUL: Do they? That’s a-- that’s a shame.
BILL: Well, I think that there’s a lot of people who think of painting as an art, but not-- or writing as an art, but not-- I mean, it’s essentially, I think a lot of people, at least on a sub-conscious level, differentiate between generative and interpretive.
PAUL: I think there is a differentiation, but I think um... you’ve lost the excitement of the game if you... you’re trying to make it on cliché terms. I-- I think that... for those who make the differentiation, they are closer than they-- than those people might think, and for those who think they are completely the same there are significant differences that must be honored. Uh, because... because... those people who uh perform art live: musicians, jazz musicians, any kind of musicians who’s performing live; any kind of actor, and kind of dancer, any kind of, well, live performer, is basically adding another dimension to their work. And that is the dimension that requires for them to be real-time revising. They basically-- it’s like-- there’s-- there’s a computer-- I mean, computer scientists should be able to understand this really well. There is-- those programs which perform functions very very well, but you can’t require them to do that in real time: for instance, monitor someone’s blood chemistry.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: There are programs that monitor blood chemistry if you feed the data--
BILL: Right.
PAUL: You know, in a regulated pattern.
BILL: right.
PAUL: But it’s very difficult-- and my brother’s a computer scientist that used to have to do this kind of thing-- to create a program that will monitor it in real time. It’s very difficult. It’s a whole nother sort of... craft to add.
BILL: It’s, it’s, it’s another level of decision making for the computer. It’s a whole-- many levels of decision making added to the computer.
PAUL: Right. And I believe that-- because it’s all kinds of-- if you have all the time in the world-- if Deep Blue had all the time in the world, it would always beat Kasparov.
BILL: Yeah. ... Yeah, sure.
PAUL: Uh, but it doesn’t. It has a limited amount of time. Say a couple billion years, a couple thousand, two minutes, whatever.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: So... there’s... that branching technique that the human mind is capable of-- of saying, “I instinctively know that is the wrong decision to make, so it doesn’t even come into the equation.”
BILL: Well, uh yeah.
PAUL: Lopping off the branches.
BILL: Humans aren’t limited to logic. There, there’s no-- to my knowledge there’s no computer that deals with fuzzy logic as well as the human brain.
PAUL: Right.
BILL: You know, it’s-- they’re still essentially, on some level, most computers are still essentially dealing with binary.
PAUL: Right. Even fuzzy logic, per se, is still kind of a dress up of
BILL: Exactly.
PAUL: Of binary logic.
BILL: Right, right, right, right. It’s adding a MAYBE to an IF/THEN. But, but, but yeah. Totally. Whereas the human mind is capable of functioning on instinct which I think is nothing more than the subconscious processing of data, but--
PAUL: Well, yeah, but we could get into-- well, if we so chose we could get into a very scientifically esoteric discussion of-- well perhaps, I mean, if you believe that ultimately all systems programming is ultimately binary--
BILL: Mm-hmm.
PAUL: Then... then... Do you believe that?
BILL: Uh... I have, at this point, an absence of evidence to the contrary.
PAUL: Well, I-- I think we all do.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: I think... and I think in the next hundred years we’re gonna find this out. We’re gonna find something that has to do with quantum physics as far as human consciousness goes. I honestly believe that.
BILL: So--
PAUL: And I think that-- I think-- so quantum--
BILL: Ambiguous consciences?
PAUL: Yeah.
BILL: Ooooh.
PAUL: Ooooh.
Bill laughs.
BILL: Ah, You’re opening a whole door there.
PAUL: Come through it, Bill.
BILL (Scottish accent): That’s a whole ugly thing, Captain.
PAUL: But, anyway that has anything to do with here nor there. Because one of my favorite things about Buddhism is that it doesn’t really matter if you believe in reincarnation or the Holy Spirit or whatever. It’s what it does to you. It-- it’s how you live your life. And it doesn’t matter if you believe in the divine or the inspired. Although, I suspect that you’re fighting the divine and the inspired at this point. And I think that it’s-- it-- you know, I-- I don’t know what the solution is for you, and it’s not about the solution for you. It’s the solution for all of us. But-- or-- and I’m not really big on solutions for all of us, anyway. ‘Cuz, I mean, if somebody offered a the solution to the world’s problems right here in a nutshell I’d tell them to go fuck themselves. I mean, for one reason I’d be out of a job.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: Um... but uh... I mean, we’re not necessarily here to solve it all and then live happily ever after. Nevertheless, would you say you’re at a crisis or would you say you’re not at a crisis?
BILL: Uh... I think I’m post-crisis. I was at-- I was at a crisis right after TUESDAY, but I think that I um found some bearing again.
PAUL: I think you found bearing, but I think you’re still at sea. But see, I’m not saying that in a condescending way. I hope you realize.
BILL: No?
PAUL: I’m not. Honestly, I’m not.
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: Honestly I’m not. I consider you to be as great an artist as I’ve ever met. And I’ve met myself, so I include myself in that.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: I consider you to be as great an artist as I’ve ever met. I consider you... to...I consider that I need to learn things about my craft that you’ve already learned about yours. I’ve also-- yeah! And I’m starting to, because you’ve worked at your craft. You’ve been pragmatic hands-on with your craft in a lot of different ways that I’m just starting to: I’m starting to write for television, you know. I’m starting to... write for hire.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: You know?
BILL: Right.
PAUL: Which you’ve been doing for a while. In fact, in some ways, you... that’s what you do is act for hire.... Except on projects like TUESDAY where you chose to do it because of-- of whatever feelings you have for the work. Um... but I-- but I think the one thing that I’ve always kind of instinctively known, whether it was because of my religions upbringing, or because of my attraction to art.
BILL: Mm-hm
PAUL: Because my attraction to art was one of a knight in shining armor. And we can talk about that too. Uh...I have revised my vision-- but not completely on that. Um... I do think that artists are true heroes.
BILL: Hmm? (Maybe this is sort of a verbal shrug?)
PAUL: True heroes. That true artists are those people who um.... and I include that person who can make the exquisite phad tai, or... or the exquisite scotch, or, or can uh... well, we can talk about that maybe later, but-- I feel like one of the things that-- that you refuse to admit is that that which you do is beyond your control--
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: To a certain extent. And you’re uncomfortable with that.
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: And I can understand why you’re uncomfortable with that, but I-- I would submit to you that you’re ult-- that if you’re truly and ultimately uncomfortable with that, then you’re uncomfortable in the universe.
BILL: Well... I mean--
PAUL: And I don’t mean to get really-- I don’t mean to get to cosmic and heady on you but it’s a logical-- I can take you through that logically if you so choose.
BILL: Well, what you’re saying-- what you’re saying is-- is, to me, tantamount to-- to claiming that there’s a god, and I have a hard time with that.
PAUL: No. Not at all.
BILL: Yeah, you’re saying--
PAUL: Why is that tantamount to claiming there’s a god?
BILL: Because you’re saying that there is something that takes place outside of me, basically. You’re saying--
PAUL: Well, I am saying that... for where you are now-- and not to sound like the great sage of the mountain-top, because I will-- the-- the world keeps spinning--
BILL: Right.
PAUL: But for where you are now, you need to put aside notions that there is not something outside yourself.
BILL: Hmm... Hmm.
PAUL: For many people-- for the born-again Christians of the world-- I would nothing but heartily convince them that there is nothing outside themselves.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: That that world which they have created is their own fucking fucked-up... vision of the world.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: And that that which they hate is themselves. And that which they love is a... sweetened aspect of themselves and that they have not left themselves.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: You... you I would encourage you to see the other aspect of the universe, and that is that you are constantly connected in a thousand million different ways to that which you feel unconnected to. And that that the-- that the satellite-- you’re either a satellite revolving around the sun or you are the revolution. You know?
BILL: Mmm.
PAUL: You know?
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: And uh... not to sound like Jesse Jackson. Although that would be-- Fuck, man. I should write for Jesse Jackson ‘cuz that’s great!
Bill laughs.
PAUL: That’s better than anything Jesse’s said in a long mother-fucking time.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: You’re either that which revolves around the sun, or (Jesse Voice) you are the revolution!
BILL: You’re right. That does sound like Jesse.
PAUL: Umm. Except it doesn’t rhyme. But it’s-- it’s a little too sublime for Jesse. We’ll have to find some other demagogue for it. But-- although I love-- my heart goes out to Jesse. I can’t hate, Jesse. He’s fab-- Did you hear his speech the last convention? It rocked.
BILL: I did hear his speech the last convention. And I had the pleasure-- one of the nice things about living in Seattle, I saw him speak about two-hundred feet away after the AIDS walk. And it was--
PAUL: He is a great mother fucking speaker.
BILL: A fantastic speaker.
PAUL: Yeah.
BILL: The way he involves an audience. Very impressive.
PAUL: KEEP HOPE ALIVE!
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: He hollers that.
BILL: He does.
PAUL: I love it.
BILL: And then he involves them. “KEEP... HOPE ALIVE! KEEP--HOPE--“ And the whole crowd is -- and it’s like, I mean, you know of course you’re all-- you’re all like-- you’re all like totally in his hand.
PAUL: That’s right.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: Alright.
Paul laughs.
PAUL: If you will.... Well, Ohhhhh I don’t know... I just. I-- What? Go ahead?
BILL; Well....I will admit that the idea of uh... doing away with the term is appealing to me because I think it would ultimately yield to a greater craftsmanship. I mean, when I hear--
PAUL: Well, wait. Wait, wait. Okay, wait. I’m gonna stop you there, if I will.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: If I can.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: Do away with the term. Since you are that-- there is nothing outside you.
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: You do away with the term.
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: There’s-- There’s this great Zen koan that I love. Says-- the young monk comes to the master, and says, you know, “I’m meditating but I’m too cold.” And the Zen master says, “Well, you know when cold go to that place where you are so cold that it kills you and when you are hot go to that place where you are so hot that it kills you.” And I lay this Irish curse on you: “Live in that universe where there is no art. Be that universe where there is no art.”
BILL: Well, I think I’ve tried to. I mean, I--
PAUL: No, I mean it.
Paul laughs.
PAUL: NO, I MEAN IT!
Paul laughs hysterically.
BILL (drunken voice mockery of Paul): You don’t understand!
PAUL: NO! REALLY! That reminds me of my brother. I did my play ELLISON AND EDEN, and my brother-- we were in New York City and we-- I don’t know if we were this drunk-- no, we were probably way drunker than this.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: And he said-- first time he ever tried something like this-- he goes: “Paul, I just wanted you to know that I really respect what you do and I think you’re really good at what you do and I just-- I think you’re play is brilliant, okay?” And I said, I said, “Well, thank you, Eddie.” And I never know what to say to people when people say that to me, ‘cuz--
BILL: Right.
PAUL: ‘Cuz I think it’s true. But it’s-- uh WHO CARES? I mean, let’s just write another play whatever, urrrrr. You’re creeping me out.
BILL: Right, right, right.
PAUL: Especially if you’re my brother, used to beat the shit out of me and tie me up, hog-time me, and you know whatever.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: So. And then. So I’m like: “Yeah, whatever, Eddie.” And he goes: (I pound the table) “NO!” And we’re in a restaurant. And it’s like, “Fuck it, man! I’m not fucking with you!” And he’s like beating on (I’m laughing) And I’m like “whoa”.
BILL (laughing): That’s perf-- that’s-- you got to put that in something some day. That’s priceless.
PAUL: It’s so fucked up.
BILL (still laughing): I’d be rolling in... my se-he-eat. “NO! I fucking mean it!”
PAUL: He’s screaming at me... and of course-- it was just a nightmare.
BILL: That’s funny, man.
PAUL: My brother. but anyway. Um...
BILL: Well, I was making a point before you got all Zen.
PAUL: “All Zen”. Well, no. I mean it. No. Really. You should live that way. I mean... but that--be true to that. “There is no art. There’s only craft.” But what does that mean?
BILL: Well, for one thing in means that you do away with a lot of bullshit. You do away with a lot of the kids who, you know, want the muse to lie on their shoulder. It--
PAUL: But you’re beyond that anyway.
BILL: Yeah, I’m beyond that, but I still gotta watch the other crap. I mean, I mean--
PAUL: Well, no you don’t. You’re a universe to yourself.
BILL: Oh, you’re gonna make me like the man without a country now.
PAUL: I think you are a man without a country. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. You be that.
Bill laughs.
BILL: Well, the thing-- I think the concept of art as applies to acting as... I don’t know, maybe it’s great for, you know-- uh, Joan Plowright, or, or, or some--you know some of the really-- many of the really great--
PAUL: Why do you go to the-- always go to the fucking Brits?
BILL: Sorry.
PAUL: As the great actors.
BILL: Well, because I’m reading Olivier’s biography right now. Talk about a-- talk about a craftsman. I’m, I’m--
PAUL: Right.
BILL: I’m blown away. When I read about what he did for his Othello, which... which, you know, it’s in living memory. I mean, that’s gonna go down with, with Burbage’s Othello. It’s ... it is one of the definitive performances of Othello. And... there was no mumbo-jumbo bullshit about it. He-- he worked-- he worked on the makeup until he had just the right tone of black. He worked on the timbre of his voice. He took the chance of studying like Sammy Davis, Jr. for his movement. He-- he uh... he approached everything--
PAUL: Have you seen it by the way?
BILL: No, I haven’t. And even if I saw the film I still wouldn’t see it. But-- I’ve read about it.
PAUL: I could see-- see that’s the problem with Olivier though. Not that he’s not a great role model, but-- and I think there’s a lot between the two of you. But-- you know, as you well know, the problem with Olivier is when he was great he was brilliant and when he was bad he was almost laughable.
BILL: At--at the risk of even putting myself in the same breath as that man, I think the same is true of me. I think that--
PAUL (laughing): I-- Shall I agree or not?
BILL: No, I mean, I think that I--
PAUL: DRACULA was...hard to watch.
BILL: Was it really?
PAUL: But I think you were in a bad script.
BILL: See, I don’t think I was in--
PAUL (laughing): And in a bad hairdo. (Laughing) Oh, we’re going to a bad place, aren’t we?
BILL: That doesn’t offend me. It’s not like I took it home with me. I actually-- I thought the toupee worked but uh-- uh-- I was so fucking pissed-off at a-- what’s the critic’s name? What’shername.
PAUL: Misha?
BILL: Misha. She totally fucking-- it’s like when some idiot says, “The editing in this film was brilliant.” Well, unless you saw the raw footage you wouldn’t fucking know, would you? And it’s the same with Misha saying--
Paul, fiddling with the light, turns it off by accident.
PAUL: Ooops.
BILL: I don’t understand-- Would you quit fucking with that light?
PAUL: Wow!
BILL: Thanks.
PAUL: We’re in the real world now. It’s uh-- Jesus fuck. No more scotch for Billy.
Bill laughs.
BILL: This stuff about-- this stuff about uh-- nobody stops to think about the fact that there was a director involved in that show. It wasn’t just about what Steven wrote. It wasn’t just about what I did, you know? What I-- when I’m-- when I’m rending my hair, my fake hair, at an incredible point and I go, “RENFIELD!” That’s not necessarily my choice.
PAUL: Right.
BILL: That’s me doing what I was told the best way I could. And I’m--
PAUL: Right.
BILL: And I’m presented with the challenge of trying to find truth in that. Now a lot of actors would have argued Eddie down.... That’s not my job. It’s not my-- it’s not my job to uh-- promote myself--
PAUL: Is there ever a time when it’s right to argue a director down?
BILL: Yeah, when you’re the other director.
Paul begins to groan very lowly.
BILL: If you’re an actor your job is to do what you’re told as best as you possibly can.
PAUL: Wow! Okay! We come to the truth of it.
BILL: I’ve-- I’ve long said that. If you want to direct a play go fucking direct a play.
PAUL: Well, wait a second. Wa-wa-wa-waaaiiit a second
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: Because I think it’s not as facile as that.
BILL: I think it should be. I think if you’re a craftsman it is.
PAUL: Ah well.
BILL: --And that’s why I’m not an artist.
PAUL: Hmmm.
BILL: I-- I don’t have any patience for that crap. I mean, it’s another-- it’s another-- it’s another way that the film world has invaded what we do.
PAUL (overlapping): Well, here we go. Well, here we go is what I’m saying is like, yes, as the novice, rookie, bullshit actor who’s got a little taste of Stanislavsky, a bad taste via Mr. Uh-- Strasberg.
BILL: Strasberg, yeah.
PAUL: Uh.... That’s the last thing they need to be doing is telling the director what their choices are. But let me tell you something about Mr. (slurry) Mr. Eddie Levi Lee, is that you know more about theatre in your fucking, you know, nose--
BILL: Then I, then I--
PAUL: Hair clippings than Eddie Levi Lee knows.
BILL: Okay, then if I-- if I believe that going into it, I’m a hypocrite when I sign the contract. And I’m not a hypocrite... so I sign the contract.
PAUL: I-- augh!
BILL: Darren Davis had the worst time imaginable with SERVANT OF TWO MASTERS. He had a miserable time. He hated it because--
PAUL: He signed the contract though.
BILL: That’s right.
PAUL: As did you. And yes, once you did it you do what you do.
BILL: That’s right. And Daz called me two weeks into rehearsal. And he said, “I need your advice, man. I don’t know what to do.” I said, “Well, what do you mean?” He said, “I can’t work with Arne. He’s-- he’s making me do his shit. He won’t listen to my ideas. I don’t know what to do I’ve never had such a miserable time. What should I do?” And I said, “Darren, you do the man’s bits and you take the money.”
PAUL (overlapping): Yeah, right, right, right, right. And I understand that. And I was... with you on that. However, Billy, you’re saying-- you’re saying to me that in no circumstances would it be right for you as one of the best actors that I know uh... to-- to call bullshit on a director. That
BILL: I’m saying it’s not my job.
PAUL (overlapping): That fucking frightens me. No, it is your fucking job!
BILL: No, it’s not.
PAUL: Yes, it is your fucking jo--
BILL: I don’t agree with you.
PAUL (overlapping): I went to-- John Sylvain came to me and said-- I had a line that said, “I threw that pass--” now obviously this is an actor/playwright, a whole nother issue.
BILL: I know the line you’re talking about, too.
PAUL: Yeah, said, “That fucking nigger dropped it.”
BILL (simultaneously): “That fucking nigger dropped it.”
PAUL: And Johnny said, “You need to cut that.” And I said, “You need to go fuck yourself, because one, it’s the night before opening, and two, it’s the fucking script, and THREE, it’s the way we rehearsed it.
BILL: Well, let me-- let me tell you something. I’m not saying-- don’t misunderstand me. In that same situation I would have asked John to keep the line. I wouldn’t have told John to go fuck himself, because John’s the director.
PAUL: No! No! No!. But see that’s where I digress with you, because John’s fucking with my shit there and he has no business doing it.
BILL: Brother, it’s not--
PAUL: And he deserves--
BILL: It isn’t your shit!
PAUL: Yes!
BILL: It’s our shit.
PAUL: It may be our shit, but, you know what. A director who doesn’t know how to let go and say, “Bon Voyage” is a director that needs to fucking--
BILL: We have different--
PAUL: Get a job at Micky-D’s.
BILL: We have-- we have different techniques.
PAUL: Are you-- well, see because-- well, I-- not to be condescending but it’s because you have the lit-- I mean, you see things only from the foot soldiers point of you and I’m saying, man, the foot-- they’ll march you fucking right through the fucking Tripoli battle lines.
BILL: That’s right. And I have-- that’s, that’s-- going back to my original statement about having that in common with Olivier. I have died by bad direction. But, that--
PAUL: But, but we just---
BILL: You’ll know when I want to direct ‘cuz I’ll go out and do it.
PAUL: Yes, but you know we were just talking about-- and I don’t know if this is on the tape, maybe it is. We were talking about these actors who will not fucking let their shit be shot from the wrong fucking angle, because they’re in control.
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: and that notion, I mean-- that notion--
BILL: Well, you gotta walk a balance. I mean, like I said, I would not have chosen-- I would not have-- Eddie Lee got my straight take on-- on--on Seward. He got my straight take on that role.
PAUL: Right.
BILL: Now-- now-- and-- and at some point he said to me basically, “I don’t want that. I want melodrama.”
PAUL: Right.
BILL: And at that point
PAUL: Right.
BILL: My job became not to change his mind but to give him melodrama.
PAUL: Right. Absolutely. I’m not-- I’m not second-guessing your choices with Eddie Lee, although Eddie Lee’s a pompous fuck, and he’s just-- you know. He’s a-- he’s a scourge on Seattle theatre which Seattle deserves for being a lay-down pussy theatre town.
BILL: Is that gonna go in?
PAUL: Oh god. None of this--
Bill laughs.
PAUL: None of this is going in.
Both Bill and Paul laugh.
PAUL: It’s an exercise in futility.
BILL: I know, I know, I know.
Both laugh.
BILL: You can’t-- there’s-- none of this is usable.
PAUL: It’s like-- (incoherent)-- like a little blurb, a paragraph.
BILL: “Art” dot dot dot dot
PAUL: “Craft” “yes” “no”
Both laugh.
BILL: I understand what you’re saying. I truly do.
PAUL: Well I’m just saying that-- I’m just saying, you know you gotta-- you gotta hang with me here and say-- regardless of the specifics of DRACULA.
BILL: Which I could have told better than Eddie Lee told. Without a doubt.
PAUL: It was a-- it was a lame duck script.
BILL: I-- I don’t agree. I think it was a very-- having re-read recently Stoker’s novel I think it was a very faithful adaptation.
PAUL: My point exactly.
BILL: Well, so you don’t like DRACULA. So--
PAUL (slurring “Dracula” badly): NO! I LOVE DRACULA! DRACULA--
BILL: It was a faithful adaptation.
PAUL: Dracula is a wonderful--
BILL AND PAUL (together): Novel.
BILL: Which should not be made into a play, you’re saying?
PAUL: Nehhh, I’m saying you want to make DRACULA into a play you need to get a better playwright than Steven Dietz, and I will hang by that one for one.
BILL (overlapping): See I think-- I think Dietz is a good playwright.
PAUL: Ehhh. Dietz is not-- Dietz-- Dietz likes to play at stylist, but he-- he doesn’t bank at stylist. He banks at being a good, old-fashioned playwright. And... if he could-- if he could bank at the bank of style, he could stylize Dracula to meet, ideally, Stoker’s vision. But to simply be faithful to Stoker’s vision narratively on stage is a fucking snooze. Because nothing is gonna match Stoker’s atmosphere. He is-- the mi-- the thing that makes DRACULA brilliant is the atmosphere, this kind of stuffy--
BILL: Absolutely, the miasma. You’re absolutely right. And, there was a woman who sat out there one evening after the show and said it was the first theatre she’d ever seen and it moved her and she was blown away. Was that art?
PAUL: Probably.... Probably it was art.
BILL: All things to all people.
PAUL (overlapping completely): Hey Billy, if a stray bullet hits somebody, you know, it’s-- it’s still murder, I guess. You know, I mean, I mean--
BILL: Well, that then-- you kinda-- you kinda proved my whole point. I mean, as far--
PAUL: Yeah, Billy--
BILL: As I’m concerned-- (indistinguishable)
PAUL: Well, then Billy we should never fine-point stuff. Because if somebody sees your balls hanging out in TUESDAY and gets moved then we’ve done our job. Right?
BILL: According to what you’re saying I guess so.
PPP: NOOO!
BILL: Yeah.
PAUL: No, I’m saying-- I’m saying-- Come on, give me a break, I’m not-- that’s not what I’m saying at all.
BILL: Well, that’s-- that’s-- as far as I can tell that’s what most people mean when they use the word art.
PAUL: I am-- NOT-- most people.
BILL: Well, that’s for sure. But-- but-- but-- but so that just goes back again to my point that art-- art as a term, as an idea is pretty useless. That-- that-- that it’s like saying “God”. It’s like saying-- it doesn’t it-- all--
PAUL: Okay.
BILL: All it encompasses is--
Paul giggles. So does Bill. Can’t determine which.
PAUL: Well, what would you replace it with, or would you?
BILL (after a pause): I-- I would replace it with the much maligned idea of craft. That-- that-- that there is a-- there is a point at which craft transcends--
PAUL: How?
BILL: Mere technicality. Umm-- I think it has to do with instinct applied to craft. I think it has to do with-- with--
PAUL: What is instinct?
BILL: Instinct is understanding below the conscious level.
PAUL: How do you get there?
BILL: I think-- I think you get there by repetition. I think you get there by dogged determination. I think that you throw a million pots until-- until you can detect the flaw before you even throw the clay. Um-- I think that’s how. I think-- I think that--
PAUL: I-- mmm.
BILL: What?
PAUL: I think you need to start reading your folk tales.
BILL: That’s esoteric.
PAUL: Because it’s a typical folk tale motif to have somebody do the same thing over and over again and not get it and then they finally find a complete way around the obstacle... that is inspired. You know, I’m not asking you to believe in God, or even divine inspiration, but I am asking you.... maybe it’s-- I honestly believe that-- the reason why we’re here tonight is partially because I just wanted to get drunk with you, and I needed to create some kind of--
Paul begins to laugh.
PAUL: some reason.
BILL: A motive.
PAUL: I won’t next time, but-- but-- is that no one exemplifies for me greater and more doggedly, I must admit, and more steadfastly and honorably the argument against art than you. And I feel the need to-- yeah, I guess I feel the need to convert you.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: I must admit. I-- I-- I-- maybe I’m just a fucking obnoxious born-again Christian that keeps inviting their friends over saying, “Let’s have some tea. Let’s talk about Jesus.”
Bill cackles.
PAUL: Only it’s much LOUDER and we’re talking about ART!
Bill laughs.
BILL: Well, I like it already.
PAUL: Hey, at least I’m pouring your beverage of choice.
BILL: You know maybe-- maybe-- I mean, ultimately, ultimately, maybe it’s a-- it’s a question of semantics, because--
PAUL: Ahh, I knew you were gonna say it and I got-- mmmph--
BILL: Well, okay.
PAUL: Go ahead. You say your say.
BILL: The most-- the most important... I-- I feel like-- it’s not really my right to say it-- but I feel like that it-- that uh, acting is a much maligned craft, I think. Not by people outside of it, but by people inside of it. I think that--
PAUL: Well, I think--
BILL: There’s a lot of bullshit that goes on, a lot of falsehood that is perpetrated in the name of the craft that should not be tolerated; and a lot of it is excused with the term “art”. And-- and-- I’m-- I’m a big believer in returning to basics. Can they hear you? Can they see you? Do they believe you?
PAUL: Yeah, but you got all that--
BILL (overlapping): Are you lying?
PAUL: But Billy, you’re being-- you’re hiding behind the basics here, ‘cuz you got all that whupped fifteen years ago.
BILL: Um... it’s still where I start.
PAUL: Well, yeeees.
BILL: And it’s-- it’s--
PAUL: And I still-- I still, when I’m writing prose, I still start with putting my verbs and adjectives and... nouns--
BILL: Well, I think--
PAUL: In the same place. But I do it fucking naturally. I mean, I don’t say to myself, “Wow, you know I just need to make sure that my adjective--
BILL: Well--
PAUL: Agrees with my--
BILL: No, I know what you’re say--
PAUL: I don’t think about it--
BILL: But--
PAUL: And neither do you. Come on.
BILL; No, I don’t-- you’re right. I don’t think about that. I don’t think about-- I don’t think about how I move on stage or I don’t think about-- about suiting my voice to the space. I do, quite frequently, have to call bullshit on myself about something.
PAUL: Right. And writers do that, too. But that-- that gets into the realm of self-analysis-- the realm of being honest, the realm of--
BILL: You’re right. Right. Which is-- which can-- and I think for an actor is craftsmanlike.
PAUL: So wait--
BILL: Turn your bullshit meter on high.
PAUL (overlapping): Wait, wait...wait. So we ent-- we have just involved, in your so-called craft-- and I’m with ya--
BILL: Okay.
PAUL: One’s morality, to a certain extent.
BILL: Or-- or a-- greater awareness of the-- of morality as a whole, perhaps.
PAUL: ‘Kay. I’m with you.
BILL: I mean-- I mean-- it, it, it--
PAUL: So that you can still lie to, you know, your employer, but that you won’t lie when you’re on the stage. I’m fine by that.
BILL: Uh, lying--
PAUL: Lord knows I call in sick.
BILL: Lying-- lying-- the most dangerous part of lying onstage is not that the audience will catch you, it’s that you will catch yourself. And the moment you do that, you-- your whole-- you pull your whole performance into question. And the moment you do that, you’re fucked. You... you-- the secret to telling a good lie, as I said earlier, is first you have to believe it. The--
PAUL (overlapping): And-- and--
BILL: The secret to telling a good... truth is first you have to believe it.
PAUL: And extending your cosmology--
BILL: Yeeees.
PAUL: Your French Existentialist cosmology-- and aren’t you embarrassed that you agree with the French Existentialists? Aren’t you?
BILL: No, because I’m very-- I’m very uh--
PAUL: Hip, that way?
BILL: Chill and 90’s. So it’s okay.
PAUL: Ah.
Paul laughs.
PAUL: No, I just hate the French and I hate their brand of Existentialism, but-- um, but I better not go in there either, ‘cuz I love your wine and your wine cheese. But um...
BILL: And your berets and your mimes.
PAUL: And your women.
BILL: Ohhh...
PAUL: That can’t go in there.
Paul laughs.
BILL: No.
PAUL: But... but... and that is that, okay-- extending that idea...
BILL: Yeah...
PAUL: God, I lost my train of thought.
Bill starts to laugh.
PAUL: Waaghhh!
BILL: Wa-aha-aha! I win by default!
They both laugh.
PAUL (talking to a invisible lineman): Judgment?. . . Thank you.
BILL: He didn’t return the serve. I win!
PAUL (tennis umpire’s voice): Point to Mr. Salyers.
Bill laughs.
PAUL: Um... no, the idea that the universe does not extend beyond yourself anyway... so, we were talking about.... what were we talking about again? We were talking about--
BILL: French Existentialism.
PAUL: No, beyond that. Before that. We were talking about being on stage....
BILL: I was saying that the biggest danger in lying was not that the audience would catch you but that you will catch you. And that-- and that’s-- that uh... the secret to being a good liar is first you have to believe--
PAUL: Right. Okay, so that-- I’m picking up now. So if you’re good at lying to yourself--
BILL: Right.
PAUL: And if the universe does not extend beyond yourself--
BILL: Right.
PAUL: Then if you’re sufficiently good at lying to yourself then you’re sufficiently good at recreating the universe and so you’re not actually lying to yourself.
BILL: Exactly.
PAUL: That’s a frightening row to hoe.... But let me tell you why... Because you’re not alone. I’m here.
BILL: Right.
PAUL: And so are the women you loved... and so are the children you’re responsible for, and so are the dogs that you’re either gonna kick or pet.
BILL: Right, and if you-- and if those-- if those people co-sign my reality, it’s true.... If I-- if-- if-- if I believe the lie and then I foist the lie on them and then they buy the lie, it’s no longer a lie.
PAUL: Wow. What would George Orwell say?
BILL: Um...
PAUL: Not that I want to be a Platonist, mind you, but-- but I have to say that that’s a scary, scary proposition.
BILL: Well--
PAUL: Two plus two-- and god knows I hate the Objection-- Objectivists. I get in fights on the Internet with the Objectivists.
BILL: Unh-hunh.
PAUL: I mean, they just fucking-- in fact I called-- I was so proud of myself: I-- I-- I-- I-- I laid into one Objectivist who was like going on about like objective truth and if we just used the same system we’d all arrive at the same fucking truth.... I couldn’t help but say that Ayn Rand was just a cold-hearted bitch and I had a fantasy about {sound of cork} Walt Whitman getting her and Sylvia Plath into a threesome.
Paul bursts into laughing.
PAUL: But um... that said-- and then somebody wrote back and said, “Yeaaahh!”
Bill bursts into laughing.
PAUL: And they were from England, too.
BILL (still laughing): You’re like-- you’re-- I bet you’re like the scourge of the Internet.
PAUL: No, I-- I can’t even get involved anymore. I mean, it was too addictive. But-- um...
BILL: I carried on a long standing debate with a-- with a-- with a Nitzschean about-- uh--
PAUL: How can somebody be a Nitzschean? Nitzsche was so all over the mother-fucking place.
BILL: I know. Well, this guy-- this guy--
PAUL: To be a Nitzschean is to be a stupid, moronic contradiction. But go ahead.
BILL: Well this-- this guy. I carried on a long-- like several weeks carried on an internet debate with this guy and uh... about moral pragmatism and... he was just putting forth some horrible ideas, and-- which I eventually summed up as saying, you know, “The problem with your ideas is that we all end up huddled over our shit in a cave with a gun in our hands.” But uh-- he--he--he turned out in the end-- finally after caring on this long debate-- and there were points where he scored coup and I scored coup and he finally goes uh... he finally-- I finally said, “What are you-- who are you? I don’t know your sex I don’t know your story. I don’t know who you are.” Turned out he was a lawyer from South Carolina. I never would have-- I would never even dream of engaging a lawyer in debate.
Long conversation about Nietszche, and how wacked he his.
Paul goes to pee. Bill hits pause.
Bill reads from the Macallan label.
Talk about Bond movies.
Talk about how Bill specializes in “Character/leads”.
Tape runs out.
Transcribed 9/4/97
Comments